Celebrate “culture” in agriculture & share skills like growing, cooking, canning
discussion of chapter 3
*i am very interested in the guilds concept, though for me up in alaska, so many of the plants would be different that i would need to originate my own guilds. and it seems like this requires way more trial and research than i am interested in. his data tabulation section really threw me. that's not for me. and it seems like, without extensive research into the MANY variables, you really aren't creating guilds, just making groups with a hope and a prayer. which may or may not have any beneficial effect at all.
*one section i really liked and found helpful in the second half of the chapter was the establishment and maintenance of systems. it is such a huge thing, implimenting a design. it's good to have a little guide to where and how to start. i especially found this helpful, "Never draw up long lists of tasks, just the next stage. It is only in the design phase that we plan the system as a whole, so that our smaller nucleus plans are always in relation to that larger plan." i am definitely guilty of too-long lists, which are completely daunting and even depressing.
*this is the point in our study process where we can all start actually looking at our site assessments and applying some of the design concepts covered in this chapter. namely 1. making zone and sector overlays 2. lists of elements' inputs and outputs, and 3. if you have the time and inclination, i suggest taking some time to think about your area, look at what kind of natural systems are prevalent and what kinds of home systems might mimic them. this is a hard subject to get into, but a treasure trove if we can.
what struck y'all most in this chapter (as a whole)? has it sparked any ideas for your site?
re: our next reading. i am suggesting that folks skim the Patterns chapter and everyone decide for themselves if it looks interesting and useful. honestly, i read the whole thing, much of it twice, and still did not find it very useful. and it is some HARD reading. one of our members, Bryce, who is a certified permaculture teacher suggested coming back to it after later chapters, when it might make more sense.
since we are running behind schedule and there is still so much of the book to read, i propose our next reading be chapter 5 Climate Factors. what does everyone think about that?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Rachel Hoff on -
I've started Chapter 4 but I'm not opposed to coming back to it later maybe as "optional" though I plan on finishing it.
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Permalink Reply by Calamity Jane on -
i'm happy to discuss it with anyone who wants to read it! in fact, i think more than any other chapter, discussion would REALLY help.
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Permalink Reply by Jennifer Thompson on -
This chapter has helped me to look at my site with new eyes. I've been on the property for over 9 years now and everything has become so overly familiar that I've just accepted certain things as they are. The Random Assembly especially helped me to take all my elements, shake 'em up, and spill them out just to see where they land. This cracked me up. What a great way to truly brainstorm and consider all options.
On the other hand, once I started to understand doing an overlay with sector analysis, I started to dread the inevitable. All my stuff is in all the wrong places and OMG are we even considering uprooting buildings and gardens and relocating them?! I suppose I'm getting carried away a bit, but still... Ugh.
I LOVED the statement he made about the "academic fallacy" toward the beginning of the chapter: "I think, therefore I have acted". That is so me! I guess I shouldn't be bragging about that...
I hope to work on my site maps and apply some stuff from this chapter this week and of course get Chapt. 5 read.
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Permalink Reply by heather marie on -
Two that stand out from chapter 3. First, the talk about "critical junctions" or "edge ecologies." I know he's mentioned this stuff before, but I think it is very compelling, the idea that the most successful settlements have always placed themselves near or within the juncture of two different ecosystems, so that the resources of both are available, as well as the unique aspects of where they overlap. I like this concept so much but I have difficulty bringing it down to the small scale. For example, could the area where the house meets the yard be considered a valuable juncture? Is that the only way to divide it up (without any water features, landscape shaping, etc)? Are the two ecologies "built" and "unbuilt?" But perhaps that is too much of a stretch. Maybe some of these concepts from the larger world simply just can't be shrunk down to a 40x100 lot. I suppose in its most miniature visible form, the edge ecology concept is found in guilds. That is, the plants and their root systems are like little environments butting up against each other, creating (potentially) rich overlap. But I don't know. Perhaps I am getting too metaphysical about it because it comes up again in the patterns chapter and it's just such a beautiful concept.
The other thing that I like, along the lines of what CJ mentioned already, is how he advises to develop a nucleus completely, and then break up the job into small, easy stages and complete them one at a time. This is always good advice to remember. To work through something in a focused logical progression. That is not my instinct, and it is also one of my major problems. Of course, I'm not sure I really get what he means by the nucleus. Does he mean like, the central goal, the heart of the matter? Or does he mean the literal center? Or does he just mean a small, manageable chunk of something, a tiny whole?
Regarding chapter 4, I have read about 3 quarters of it. Some of it I found really fun, in a "look at those pretty jewels in the shop" kind of way, not particularly useful to me. Other stuff I found downright impenetrable, specifically the section on, err, "matrices and the strategies of compacting and complexing components." :) I'm probably going to just go ahead and finish it and would be happy to join in on a discussion people are game, either now or later, after we read the few chapters after it.
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Permalink Reply by Calamity Jane on
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jennifer, i know what you mean about the dread of things in the wrong places. i am seeing some of that too, and am loathe to put the massive amount of work into moving things.
one thing i am getting my head around as i read the manual is that this is all based on a farm-scale. some things, probably most things, do translate to yard-scale, but like for example in my yard nothing is further than what is technically presented as zone 2, and really almost all of it is zone 1. therefore nothing can be all THAT far away from right....
heather, i think the edge concept totally micronizes (is that a word, can it be?) not necessarily in the presented sense of biological ecology(though from a bug's point of view, these micro edges would be pretty significant), but in the sense of general richness. the edge between house and yard? that's the porch! the most awesome spot on the property in my eyes, in fact my favorite place in the entire world. it's where everything comes together and HAPPENS!
as far as nucleus, i think he means more the brain than the heart. like, the part that controls or otherwise influences the other parts. another way i heard it put by Geoff Lawton i think, was 'start at your front door and work outward, in chunks.' -
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Permalink Reply by Jannine Cabossel on -
I totally agree about the dread of things being placed wrong-so glad many of us feel that way but it is good to see this so that we may perhaps be able to make some changes that would work better. Not everything could change but little stuff that could ease our work loads perhaps.
The Random Assemblies design method was great for me like I stated in the discussion-first half of ch. 3.
I also really liked the ESTABLISHMENT AND MAINTENANCE OF SYSTEMS section. I liked 'taking the evolution in stages, breaking up the job into easily achieved parts' most helpful for overwhelmed people! And I'm glad he's made mistakes like us-God knows, I've wasted time and money planting trees in dry areas that later died from being planted to far from water sources-In the past, I've just gone by 'live and learn'.
I never thought about making a design before on the property. It certainly helps give me some insight.
I've lived on my property for about 15 yrs and I also feel like my eyes are more opened now.
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Permalink Reply by Jannine Cabossel on
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Chapter 5 first-yes please!
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Permalink Reply by Calamity Jane on
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certainly it would have been great to have made an intentional and thought out design at the very beginning, before throwing lots of work at our properties. but, there's something to be said for knowing a place very intimately before you make the design.... 15 years is such a wonderful place to begin! there are thing you know about your property that you could never 'find out' in the course of an assessment, things you probably couldn't even voice to yourself, and don't know you know, but which guide your decisions anyway. i've lived here for 5 years and know this little chunk pretty well. i actually made up a sun map out of my memory (can't do a useful real one until march, the sun changes SO MUCH!) i'm curious to see how acurate it is...
but boy am i still continually learning about it. so much to know about a piece of land. i think about people who've lived in the same place their whole lives (for generations back) and can't even conceive of how much they must know. cool to think about... -
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Permalink Reply by Kathryn Robles on -
This made me think of the game Settlers of Catan. The most strategic places are on as many edges as possible in order to access the most resources at one time.
heather marie said:
Two that stand out from chapter 3. First, the talk about "critical junctions" or "edge ecologies." I know he's mentioned this stuff before, but I think it is very compelling, the idea that the most successful settlements have always placed themselves near or within the juncture of two different ecosystems, so that the resources of both are available, as well as the unique aspects of where they overlap.
I have moved our chicken coop SO many times. This is why I need to do some designing. I tend to get out there and just do something and fuss with it later. I think that's more possible because I'm working on such a small scale. It's one thing to move my tiny chicken coop and goat igloo, it would be a different story with a larger structure. Now that I'm starting to know more about my property I find myself worried that I don't know enough. When I knew less I would just fuss around until I figured out what worked, but now that I know some, but not enough, I'm afraid of messing something up.
Jannine Cabossel said:I totally agree about the dread of things being placed wrong-so glad many of us feel that way but it is good to see this so that we may perhaps be able to make some changes that would work better. Not everything could change but little stuff that could ease our work loads perhaps.
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